@robinsonwren
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Tracy G and all the other angry folks… I haven’t once said it’s not real.
For all the “don’t be a bully” commentary, pretty sure I’ve the one who’s been called all the names and told how stupid I am. I haven’t once said a bad word toward any of you.
But, to each their own…
I go backpacking as often as I can, for the record. I would love to find evidence. Am I not allowed to ask if others have any I’ve missed?
Just don’t get the vitriol. Is it that questioning this subject scares you? Honestly, my 2 percent is calm and happy to exist. But, my life isn’t based on this existing or not. I’d just love it to exist. That’s all.
Anyways, I find the anger misplaced. Not sure why having a BA is a bad thing… Does that too preclude me from this subject?
Anything worth knowing is worth questioning. No reason to fear a bit of pushback. I’m here for the same reasons you are. We all want the same thing…..
Hey Tracy; sorry to be so delayed in replying to you. Paul had me all het up.
it’s a good thing!First and most importantly, thank you for keeping an open mind and open ears during this all. If only more of us would take that tack, we’d have far less crashes..
So, I suppose you’re right—short of a body or bodypart, or bones, it would be a tough sell.
Perhaps a live on in captivity would work, being studied by accredited men and women.
Or, at the very far end, a multiple-hours’ long video of them existing in nature over time. But, this would have to be amazing. Like, watching one chase down a deer at 40 mph or split a tree in twain.
As far as the great video or picture goes .. I just don’t know. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE that stuff. But, when’s the last time you’ve seen an actually good one? I can’t actually recall a single one (PGF aside, as I just can’t take a known conman who was going out to make a bigfoot film to be the only guy to ever clearly film one—one which looks spot-on like the female BF he drew not a decade before in his self-published book on Bigfoot..).
The Freeman Footage is nice but grainy. It’s so hard bc the most elusive, rare species get filmed by great and dedicated photographers.
Hell, we have giant squid on film now… They live miles under the sea! But, we can’t get one good shot of a giant ape? Hmm…
Do you know of any great footage? I’m always down to enter that rabbit hole. But, as far as proof; I just don’t think, for me, it’ll cut mustard.
Which guys from WA? That very recent episode? When the one steps in the oil-slick and … pees … Why do I only seem to point to urine-based episodes…… Damn it.
If so, I actually really was not impressed. Sadly, something was just .. off. They were a little too sure of themselves. That was one of those “oh come on and just film one already” moments.
Or, were you referring to another episode?
Do you recall the one with the guy (a cop I think) who took his daughters camping, and heard one circling? That was a very good one.
The ambulance episode was fantastic as well.
Oh Paul A.; we do all have teeth, and though I’m not your progeny, Bigfoot has teeth too. All I’ve asked for is one.
You seem to keep missing my mark, so perhaps I am erring here—I’m not trying to “win” anything. And, I have no interest in debate.
True, no one owes anyone a thing. But, where on earth is a better place to openly ask for a presentation of any known evidence.
That’s my main thrust. I’m asking if anyone has any to share.
I am not demanding—just asking.
The answer seems to be a resounding no, backed by lots of those aforementioned teeth gnashing.
I do mean that is too bad—bc (agaaaain) I would love there to be that evidence.
Maybe some day we will get some. I’d hope the lucky party would share it, deserved or not.
We have a shared fascination. Would be great to share in the discovery.
Anyways, I fully understand how logical fallacies operate. I was pointing toward leaning on them as a crutch. Not saying you do—but you were yawing pretty mightily for a minute there.
Paul, if you do come across that evidence, I ask kindly that you share it.
Until then, my friend. I’ll hold my 2 percent, and keep on listening. The stories are great in the interim. Let’s just not confuse them with proof.
Hey Paul A.; Hah
well done, sir.But, you forgot one of the biggest of all the logical fallacies–The Fallacy Fallacy. That’s not a joke. It simply states that just by pointing out perceived fallacious aspects of another’s end of the debate does not, in fact, strengthen your own platform.
Pointing out logical fallacies is nice; but, it only proves that you went to college. I took that course, too. In fact, I loved it so much that I took Symbolic Logic, as well. Shall we discuss modus ponens next? If A then B…? No?
The rules of logic are in place to ensure a proper debate. But, they’re just a lens. They don’t rule over facts when the facts are .. well .. just plain there.
I say all that to say this–I absolutely respect your approach and your intellect. I think we can both agree that we’re sound mentally and can hold our own, correct?
So, let’s drop all the semantics and fallacies that aren’t actually affecting the main thrust of this: What is your evidence?
Again, I am not saying BF is fake. I am not saying you must prove its existence to me. I am simply asking for that evidence.
You refuted the claim that there is no evidence. But, you haven’t offered any. Every other animal on this planet is documented scientifically and categorized. Again, this takes empirical evidence.
And, no–no one has to bring the evidence to my doorstep. But, we all know that if BF was validated by even that one molar I had mentioned, it would be one of the biggest scientific stories of the last 500 years. No one need bring it to me. I’m not a scientist. I just mean that IF any evidence had ever been found, we ALL would know about it.
I ask again, and entirely without malice or accusation, what evidence do you know of? I would very much like to see it–b/c I WANT biggie to be real. Believe it or not, I too am on that side of this, guys.
I understand that for many of you, your approach is to take BF with an open mind and with inherent trust. That’s OK. My approach is the other end of it. Is that not also OK?
I am not bullying anyone. I am not calling anyone a liar. I haven’t belittled anyone. The only thing I have done is ask to see what makes the other end believe without tangible proof of life.
As for #2: I’ll say it again, there have been bones of even very rare predators found. Snow leopards, of which we know there are less than less than 8000, are still filmed, studied, trapped, and yes even leave bones behind. Some of which are stumbled upon by Tibetan yak farmers.
If BF is real; and has a sustainable breeding populous; and exists on 5 continents (making it a cosmopolitan distribution species, one of very few on earth), there would be bones found. I am asking why there hasn’t ever been a single one.
The forest does not clean up after itself that well. We know this b/c, again, bones of other animals are found. I never said I found “tons” of bones. I said, in my limited time on that farm, I did find a few here and there–just by sheer happenstance.
Summation of #2: Give reason as to why no bones exist.
#3 we’ve largely discussed. (It is Moving the Goalposts, for the court’s record, your honor.) But, I’ll try to be concise here: What evidence has been dismissed by skeptics? Blurry videos and unclear photos along with eyewitness tales are fine. I love them, in fact. I spend far too much time delving into them. But, they don’t prove anything.
Summation of #3: We all know what it takes to be considered scientific proof; what proof is there? Even dismissed proofs, I would like to still have listed.
#4 I will concede that, yes, Black Op-type programs and Top Secret programs do exist. So, there are ways the government keeps certain matters under wraps. But, those are matter of national security. I just don’t see another primate mattering to our government, which has enough fires to put out already, and not enough cash to go around.
The notion that BF would immediately half logging, be on the Endangered Species List, and stop all camping and hiking is ludicrous. Grizzlies inhabit many of the national parks which persons specifically go to b/c of those grizzlies. I know I love Yellowstone largely b/c of the prospect of seeing wolves and cougars. Another predator, which has already been there all along (not like he’s just being introduced now, as was the case with wolves in YNP, which increased crowd numbers exponentially), would only increase traffic to the great outdoors.
Speaking of wolves, we can’t even decide if we want to keep them on the ESL, and we have teams of scientists monitoring their numbers daily. It takes years, sometimes decades, to properly study an animal’s population base.
Sorry; that was getting tangential again.
Summation of #4: Perhaps the government knows more than they let on, but not sure they’d have interest in a cover-up. Can you give light to why exactly they’d want to cover up BF?
#5: I definitely do not want to debate evolution with you. But, I will say this: Evolution is entirely replicable. In fact, it can be (and is) replicated in petri dishes all the time. Yale did a big study of this a few years back, if I recall correctly. As far back as the 1930s, Scientific American was documenting these experiments.
When it comes to cosmology and giant unknowns of gravitational waves and String Theory—I don’t think it’s quite applicable to this discussion. We already discussed how “proof” is tricky, and that eyewitness reports are something; but they certainly aren’t going to answer our questions. Thing is, there’s eyewitness stories of just about everything and anything: mermaids, mermen…., dragons, UFOs, shadow people, carnivorous trees, unicorns, and on and on. It’s what folklore and mythology is based in.
Summation of #5: Let’s stick to the known universe, and the topic; eyewitness reports will not prove this subject one way or another.
#6: Memory is fallible. That was my only point with that. When folks say, “I 100 percent know what I saw”, it’s just not possible. All I am saying is that memory and the mind can play big ol’ tricks on us all. I was not discounting the mind entirely. Just saying that it’s not the best evidence. And, it weakens the eyewitness accounts more than anything, which is too bad. Again, this does not mean I am discounting all stories and accounts. I am merely stating a fact that is too often forgotten…. Pun intended.
Summation of #6: We agree.
#7: Think we largely covered this one, too. But, again, I am merely asking for some evidence. Not extraordinary evidence. A bone is not extraordinary. A tooth is not either. And, yes, the preponderance of evidence in the case of Bigfoot’s existence leans heavily against it, for all the reasons stated so many times. That is all I mean by that. Again, I am not here to disprove Bigfoot. I WANT it to exist. I just want to see the evidence, so I can rest easier with accepting that 2 percent.
Summation of 7: We’ve already been here.
#8: I never said all science agrees on X; nor that all science has to agree upon Y. Of course not; but, what science does is it takes the best evidence, the strongest evidence, verifies it, proves it over time, studies it, and repeats. The best evidence then is “accepted” as fact. These can and do change. But, it is also the best system we’ve got. Saying “Science is flawed” doesn’t mean something else is better. Sure, science is flawed. Do you have an alternative to provide better results? Would we be better off without science?
Summation of #8: Science isn’t perfect; but, it’s certainly the best we’ve got. Do you have an alternative way of providing proofs that would be better? Or, better suited for our discussion of Bigfoot?Summation of the heavens: Guys, I only want to have a healthy discourse on the subject of why we’re lacking so much of the typical evidence. Let’s not get bogged down in semantics, or be pedants who can’t discuss this broadly. I want to believe. I cannot change your mind. I don’t want to change your mind. I cannot take Bigfoot away from any one of you. I don’t want to take Bigfoot away from any one of you. I am not calling anyone crazy nor questioning anyone’s story.
I am asking for a discussion on this matter.
Hi diana m.; not sure what that means, exactly.. Actually, we’ve been having quite a nice discussion on here. You are welcome to participate. But, you certainly don’t have a gun to your head to stick around, either.
Yep, Tracy A., that’s precisely what I mean. When I hear those stories (I don’t mean that in any pejorative way at all) or accounts, when they add up properly and all the pieces of background and foreground make good sound sense, then yes–that makes me dip into that 2 percent milk of belief I still hold onto.
Was Tracy the guy who accidentally peed on one? I found that one to be soooo compelling (not the peeing part..). He was a very believable guy. All he said was just so .. honest.
Hey again, Tracy A., which ones exactly? I haven’t seen any—aside from PGF (not broaching that one! Please no…), that show anything of any substance. Not even close.
So many of these are “discussed” or “mentioned” but never “released”.
Here’s a good analogy: The Illinois DNR refuses to accept that cougars are back in the state. They’re considered “extinct Easterm cougsrs” (which is falonious to start with… Topic for another time).
But, we have 1. Crystal-clear HD pictures and crystal-clear HD video (game cams mostly) of cougsrs in IL. With geotags and everything.
We even have confirmed bodies of dead ones.
That isn’t enough to establish a population. And that is a known species.
There isn’t debate or frame-by-frame analysis of some speck…
If you know of any great evidence, please share. I would LOVE to see any and all.
I am hopelessly subscribed to multiple crypto-channels on YouTube with the sad hope that one will give me what I hope for.. So far, douces.
Please share!
Thank you!I’ll have to refresh my memory of that particular episode.
What was the guy doing? Or girl. Those androgynous names are tough to gender. Wouldn’t want to offend.
Hey Tracy A.; just a turn a phrase. I meant the preponderance of evidence being the absolute lack of evidence being a preponderance.
It’s that lack of evidence that weighs so heavy.
I don’t think I can make you happy, though :/.
Wasn’t a diatribe. Just getting the point out there as concisely as I felt best.
Which one was that, exactly? Give me a few keywords and I’m sure ill recall. I surely have listened to every episode, at least once (sad to say, most at least twice).
Tracy A., if I’ve offended you in any way, that was not my intention. I get verbose in a hurry—but I only mean it as a way of being clear. Not as a giant D-bag. I’m sorry if I come off otherwise. Not my intention at all.
I really did enjoy your question, and the thoughts evoked thereafter.
Sure thing, Tracy A. So, I think this would really and truly need to be its own topic forum (and surely it is, in some fashion and form).
Without going too deep, I will just say that there has yet to be one actual piece of physical, empirical evidence for the existence of this creature.
Eye-witnesses accounts don’t count towards that. They are a different form of evidence.
Speaks of “let’s stop saying ___”, we could all do well to stop saying, “Welllll, in a court of law, Sasquatch would be convicted 100 times out of 100.”
This isn’t a court of law. Nor the court of public opinion. This is science. Science requests scientific evidence—which is empirical, testable, repeatable, and so on and so on.
Sadly, we haven’t gotten anything even close. I keep hearing, “There’s DNA evidence.” Where? Dr. Todd Disotell (sic?) had a standing offer to provide free DNA analysis for any credible sample. He borne out zero results. (If you listen to his episodes as a guest on Monster Talk podcast, you’ll be far more scientifically enlightened than I can hope to purvey.)
Dr. Brian Sykes (sic?) had the same end results.
There’s also no such thing as “unknown primate DNA”. That doesn’t exist. That’s not a possible outcome. That’s not how analysis works in that field of endeavour. It’s just not.
The other big “let’s stop saying this please” is “How often do you find a bear carcass in the forest?”
How often? Not very. But YOU DO. It has happened thousands upon thousands of times. In fact, every animal species on earth has its bones on display in a museum and studied to death by science.
Sure, we don’t often stumble upon animals rotting in the woods. But we do. Heck, I have! In my mere few thousand hours on my Grandpa’s farm, I came across the bones of plenty of animals—including skulls as large as buck skulls.
That argument simply doesn’t hold water. That is EXACTLY what I hope we can accomplish herein. Let’s smash down those silly anachronisms of bigfooting.
We’d all be better off for it.
So, again, without delving any deeper, I’ll just say that we have no tangible evidence. And let’s not talk coverups please. We can…but I’d rather not. A president can’t even get a BJ from an intern without the world knowing. They aren’t covering up a giant animal with on-call squadrons of cleaners.
I would love also to broach the topic of why it’s so silly to think the government would want to cover up the big guy. Bc that too is bonkers.
But, I’ll end by mangling a quote I heard a while back—if you keep putting dirty dishes into a sink, the water doesn’t get cleaner.
A lot of poor evidence doesn’t equate to one piece of good evidence. Know what I mean?
A thousand eye witnesses don’t make one good piece of evidence. I think we can agree that, as far as proving this goes, eye witness testimony is about the weakest evidence we could have.
A single molar would solve all of this … We hav 500 million year old ferns fossilized. We have complete T. rex skeletons! Let’s not deny that the lack of physical evidence is a huge, HUGE issue.
Hope this helps evince what I meant. Please keep up the discussion. I find it entirely enlightening!
Thank you, Steven J., for your meted and reasonable response to all of this.
Nope, don’t think you missed a thing. But, man, if that isn’t exactly how I felt upon checking today.
I sincerely thought I might get a bit of blowback for my writing style (comes with that territory). But, thought it would largely be focused, intelligent discourse on the topic of things errantly associated with this subject.
That was the goal. Funny, but i feel like we’re actually now getting there! Since I’ve had time to respond to a few comments, things have really progressed positively.
I think that speaks volumes about the true members of this site.
But yeah, getting attacked for not replying to 3 AM postings on here quickly enough? Really?
Oh well .. We’re on the bright side of the moon, now.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, Paul A—I can get it. I just can also be take a bit aback by it. Particularly herein. I’d think these forums would be a more comfortable place, where thought and reasonable conversation could be found.
If we’re all just high-fiving about how we all believe, well, what’s the point?
And, like I said in another recent reply, in my day-to-day, I am the guy who has to explain why he himself is so fascinated by “such nonsense”. I had an ex who was legitimately worried that I would start believing and want to go out chasing the big guy. Hahah oh man… But, when we were awakened by those hollers at Manistee River while backcountry camping, I think we both caught the same chill…
Funniest part is that, as avid a fan and listener of crypto-casts as I am, I had NO IDEA that the original dogman stories were from Manistee!! I was right there last summer, backcountry trekking, with the gf and the Shiba, and hadn’t the slightest clue.
Really though, we heard some pretttty eerie screams the first night there.
The second day, we stopped to make lunch along the trail, created on a ridge overlooking the eponymous river. We heard a bunch of crashing across the river—like holy hell was coming through on a steamroller—and…..out comes a big doe whitetail.
Thing is, this doe takes one last look behind her, and then dives (!!) headlong into the river! I had never seen that kind of evasive maneuver in person before. She got caught up on a downed tree in the river, but forced herself over it (sure she was going to drown), swam the width of the river, came up that 60° incline of the ridge, and bolted right past us.
Talk about one scars deer! What in the world got her goat is beyond me… Pretty sure the biggest predators there are coyotes. Interesting, no?
But, all of that said, it’s not evidence. Just a neat story to tell.
Thanks for the commentary! Much obliged.
